Is Christianity Anti-Torah?

Welcome to Our Hope,

a production of Chosen

People Ministries.

On this podcast

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and discover God's plan

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One of the most enduring

parts of Judaism to this day

is a reverence for the Torah.

The first five books

of the Bible—Genesis,

Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers,

and Deuteronomy—are read

throughout the year

in synagogues everywhere,

with the cycle of readings

concluding at the fall

festival of Sukkot.

While there is no Temple

and no Levitical priesthood,

the

the Torah is still perceived

as relevant and worth

keeping in the Jewish

community today.

One common objection

Jewish people

have to believing in

Jesus is that Christianity

is perceived

to be anti-Torah—that

Jesus can’t be the Messiah

because the Messiah

would never abolish the Torah.

However, we know Yeshua

said He “did not come

to abolish the Torah,

but rather fulfill.”

So how can we respond

to this objection?

On today’s episode,

we have invited

first-time guest Dr.

Daniel Nessim to help us

answer the question

“Is Christianity anti-Torah?”

Dr.

Nessim, welcome to Our Hope!

Thank you for inviting me.

Yeah, we're so glad

we can

have you on this podcast.

I know that your background

is kind of around this topic,

so I'm very excited to hear

what your insights are.

As a first time

guest on Our Hope

we have to ask you

one very important question.

What is your favorite food?

You know,

what popped in my mind

when I heard you say

that is

potato latkes for Hanukkah.

Oh wow.

But really?

I think it's probably actually

poppy seed hamantaschen

from Purim.

That I really love,

a nice big Hamantaschen,

which is a kind of cookie

or biscuit

filled with poppy

seed and honey.

Those are delicious.

They are delicious.

We know you have a Ph.D.

in theology and religion

from the University

of Exeter in England,

and your studies

mostly focused on the earliest

believers in Jesus,

which is, again,

very important to

today's episode,

but first, we just want to know

what drew you to

study this subject?

Well, you know,

as a young Jewish

believer in my teens and 20s,

I grew up in a church

that believed that

the Torah

was absolutely irrelevant

to believers today.

And I really had to question

that as a Jewish believer,

because I wanted to know really

there's more to it,

because the Torah is spoken

of throughout the scriptures

and the New Testament

in positive terms,

how could it be absolutely

irrelevant today?

And so that kind of set

me on a track where I started

studying more and more

and I wanted to learn

more about it.

I want it to be

a better teacher.

I don't know if that

happened, but nevertheless,

I really felt I need to

come to grips with this topic.

And so that's really

what led me into this.

Wow!

That's awesome.

So before we jump into

Christianity and the Torah,

we have to first establish

what the Torah is

and why it is so

important to Judaism.

Can you briefly

share about the Torah

for those in our audience

who may not be familiar

with it?

Well, the Torah is

a number of different things.

Often when we talk

about the Torah,

we're talking about

the five books of Moses.

Other people view

it simply as the laws

that are contained

in those five books of Moses.

But the funny thing is,

you know, take Genesis.

It only has like four

or five laws in it. So

the Torah really

is wider than that.

And then there's another sense

in which the Torah

prophesies the coming

of Messiah in Deuteronomy.

And it also speaks

about God's

relationship to Israel.

So God instructs Israel,

you will be my people

and I will be your God.

And Israel

takes him up on that.

It becomes a covenant

or a contract

between God and Israel.

So the Torah is

different things.

But then for Jewish people,

the Torah is even

something else,

because the Torah is

somehow merged

with Jewish tradition

in later centuries.

Now, do Jewish

people see obeying the Torah

as a way to achieve salvation?

And if not,

why do they keep the Torah?

Yeah,

that is a great question,

because I think the

normal thought from

the Christian side

is to view things

from the opposition

of law and grace.

You cannot mix law and grace

for the Jewish people.

There really isn't

that much of a mixture either,

because for Jews,

Torah is not really the way of

of being saved, because Jewish

people don't

normally think about

how can I be saved?

They would normally

think, hey, I'm Jewish

unless I'm really bad

I don't have to really worry

about my eternal future,

because the Jewish phrase is

all

Israel has a place

in the world to come

and Jewish people

just think that way.

So salvation to Jewish

people is more about

those deeds of Messiah,

which will save the Jewish

people from the nations world

around the world

that are coming

to destroy them.

And so, yeah, I would say

Jewish people really

aren't looking to keep

the Torah

is a way of salvation.

On the other hand,

if you are completely

wicked Jewish person

and live wickedly,

then you can

definitely be struck

out of the Book of Life.

That's interesting.

So it's not a way to

achieve salvation.

It's just a way to live.

Yeah.

You keep the Torah

if you're religious,

you keep it because you are

in that covenant relationship

with the God of Abraham,

Isaac and Jacob.

And that is the reason

to keep it.

And maybe you keep it to

like in some sects,

particularly Hasidic sects,

there's the conception

that the more good

deeds we do, the more

times that we obey the

Torah, the closer

we bring the days of Messiah.

And maybe we can

hasten His coming

by doing good deeds,

hasten the day.

Well,

speaking of Messiah,

that leads us right

to the next question.

What many people tend

to miss in the gospels

is that Jesus was

considered a rabbi.

We see His followers

call Him this, I guess,

depending on the translations,

either rabbi or teacher.

But when we think of the

word rabbi today,

we probably get a

slightly different idea

from what Yeshua actually was.

So what exactly did it mean

to be considered a rabbi

in the days of the gospel

and how is Jesus different

from other rabbis?

Yeah, that's

another great question,

because in reality,

in those days, the term

rabbi was more of what we call

an honorific, in other words.

It's

something you say to someone.

It gives them, you know, honor.

And so there were

various terms, "rabbi"

would be one of them.

"Rav" would be

another or "rabbon".

And some of the

greatest teachers

of the Jewish people

in those days

in ancient history

actually were not

officially rabbis.

They never took that title.

But on the other

hand, rabbi means

my teacher, my great one.

And so it is this

acknowledgement that you're

looking to this person

for direction.

Nowadays, rabbi, really

is more of a technical term.

You don't use the term rabbi

unless you have

actually been ordained

by some kind of credible body.

And so you have reform

and orthodox and

and other rabbis

and Messianic rabbis.

Those normally are

people who have got

what we call Smicha

or ordination.

And so the term rabbi

today is not the same

as it was back then.

I see.

I think what

they would both have in common,

you would say, is that

in both circumstances

of the use of rabbi,

it refers to somebody

who's teaching others

how to keep Torah.

Yeah, absolutely.

That is a foundational thing.

There are people

who are teaching

the Jewish people

how they ought to live

and more than just

teaching the Torah,

because remember,

there were the scribes

and the Pharisees

and Sadduccees,

they taught Torah too.

And some of them were rabbis,

but more than teaching

just the Torah, you taught

how to interpret it.

So you said this

is what it means.

You basically made up what

or helped teach people

in what we call now halacha.

This is the way in

which you should walk.

This is what the rules

of the Torah actually

mean

in practice today and so Jesus,

Yeshua definitely did this.

He said, "You have heard

that it was said,

but I say unto you..."

And He said,

this is the proper way

to interpret and implement

and use the Torah

in your own spiritual life

and life in general.

Yeah.

And I think for many

Jewish people who

read the gospels,

they often say, wow,

this book is so Jewish,

you know, and they see

Jesus expounding on the Torah.

But one misconception about

Jesus is that

He was against Torah

because He called

out the Pharisees

about their traditions.

For example, in Matthew 12,

when Jesus and His disciples

were picking grain

and eating it on the Sabbath,

they weren't selling it,

just picking and eating,

the Pharisees

got angry with them.

And also, we often see

Jesus healing people

on the Sabbath as well,

which also made Him

not very popular

with the Pharisees.

However, we know Jesus

kept the law perfectly

because He never sinned.

So can you briefly explain

the difference

between the Torah

and the traditions?

Yeah,

you know, for Jewish people,

there's this idea

that actually has

a little bit of merit,

but is not absolutely

something

that we should put

our faith and hope in.

But this idea that when Moses

wrote down the Torah,

he didn't write down everything

that he ever said about it.

In fact, therefore,

we have what we

call the oral law. Now,

for some Jewish people,

the oral law, as

it is explained in

the first century

and in the Mishna

and the Talmud after that

is authoritative.

And we would say as believers

that the only thing

that is

absolutely authoritative

and most Messianic

Jews are of this mind,

the only thing that's

absolutely authoritative

is the word of God.

If there are such traditions

that have been handed down

and might actually

have survived

some of them from the

very days of Moses,

they are not at the same level

as the word of God.

And so a rabbi teaches

not only Torah, but

he teaches these things

and understands

them at the least

so that he can help

people learn

how they ought to live.

And Yeshua himself

didn't take these rules as

and teachings

as absolutely

authoritative again.

He said, you've heard

that it was said,

but I say to you,

the rule concerning

grind grinding grain,

it makes total sense

that you don't harvest

and grind grain on the Sabbath.

But whether that extends

to taking a little bit

for yourself

to eat in your hand

and grinding it in your hand

to eat that's halakha.

That is an interpretation

and Yeshua says,

you know, that finer point is

is not really at the core

and we need to get back

to what the Lord actually said.

Rather than getting hung up

on what we call the fence

around the Torah,

the rules that prevent us

from breaking the rules.

And for what it's worth,

it was well intentioned.

I think the

oral law really was

meant to try to protect people

from disobeying the Torah.

But we see that it actually

became burdensome

on the people in Jesus' time.

But we know that Yeshua

really did respect the Torah

and taught the Torah

and He told his disciples

in Matthew 5:17 that He did

not come to abolish the law

or the prophets,

but to fulfill.

So what exactly does that mean?

Yeah,

I really think that

verse is fundamental

and what we have to do with

every scripture is

look at it in context.

And it is at right

at the beginning

of what we call the Sermon

of the Mount, verse 17

or 18 into chapter

five of Matthew.

And it basically

is the Lord saying,

"I haven't come to destroy,

but to fulfill."

And He's opposing

destruction of the Torah

with a Greek word

called "pleroo",

which is to fulfill, but He's

definitely not saying

that His fulfilment

of the law annuls the law.

In other words, the Torah is in

the New Testament,

even of eternal value.

It is the righteousness of God.

The Torah as written

in the five books

of Moses, describes

God's righteousness.

It does not describe

a way of salvation,

except maybe for

Israel as a people. But

it describes the

way in which

we ought to live to please

God and not, again,

to get merit, but in order to

fulfill our

covenant obligations.

So he didn't want to

destroy the law.

In fact, if I might add,

He also said not one jot

or one tittle shall pass away

till all these things

be fulfilled.

And when He said

that, He's saying

not the smallest

part of the law will pass away.

And the reason He said that

is because all things

being fulfilled actually

carries us on to the

very war of Armageddon.

That's after His

millennial rule,

all things are fulfilled

when heaven and earth

are rolled up like a scroll

and there is a new heaven

and a new earth,

then everything comes

to its completion.

Those are the things

that are prefigured

already in the Torah and

part of the whole package.

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Shalom, I'm Mitch Glaser,

president of Chosen

People Ministries.

Is it possible

for Jewish people

to believe in Jesus

when there's such a sad history

of Christian antisemitism

that has shaped

Jewish attitudes

towards the gospel?

Well, I know there's hope

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And I would love to

offer a few suggestions

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with the love of God

through Messiah.

First,

keep your message personal.

You're representing

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Second, be

loving, patient and kind

even when they object.

And then finally,

and most importantly, pray,

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that's chosenpeople.com/pray.

So would you say that

there is,

I guess, an aspect to the Torah

that's also prophetic?

Yeah, absolutely.

Because in Deuteronomy

chapter 18 in verse

15, Moses says that

the Lord will raise up for you

a prophet who is like unto me.

And then he says

something really profound.

He says Him you shall hear,

and He will speak the

words of the Lord.

He will speak exactly

what the Lord tells Him.

So you go forward to

Yeshua and here He is.

He's one like Moses

because He is a teacher

now who is interpreting

the Torah for the Jewish people

and showing its true intent.

He's the authoritative teacher.

And again, the Sermon

on the Mount points out

that He is,

He has that level of

authority like Moses.

And the people were amazed

here in

Deuteronomy.

He says

He's only going

to speak the words

that the Lord

gives Him to speak.

And then we come

to the Book of Yohanan or John.

And Yeshua very clearly says,

I hear from the Father

and I only say the words

that He gives me to speak.

Right. Very clear.

There is a prophetic

fulfillment in our Messiah.

And that's, of course,

just one of those

hints in the Torah

of the days of Messiah.

Nicole:

That was beautifully put

and we definitely see that

Yeshua's disciples

carry on this ministry

that He began.

So can you tell us

a little bit, especially

since you studied this

for your doctorate degree,

what does the Book of Acts

specifically show us

about the earliest

believers in Yeshua

and about their relationship

to the Torah?

Yeah, that's

something that people

really are beginning

to clue in on and figure out

that the earliest

Jewish believers,

they clearly worshipped

in the temple

until the temple was destroyed.

And that means as

as they went,

they prayed there.

They made their offerings,

their their sacrifices.

They paid their temple tax

and they saw nothing in it,

that contradicted their faith

in Yeshua

as their salvation,

as their source of redemption.

And so it was given that

they would continue to do this.

And even Rav Shaul

or the apostle Paul,

offered sacrifices and paid

for the offering of sacrifices

in the Temple in

Acts chapter 21.

So the real issue in Acts

is not whether or not

they should keep

keeping the Torah,

that's maybe something

for another discussion,

the real issue, in Acts

is whether or not

Gentiles, who come to faith

in Yeshua

should have to keep the Torah.

And ultimately

whether if they come

to Messiah Yeshua,

they should

actually become Jews

in order to truly

become part of God's people.

So that's the real discussion.

And so when you get to Acts

15, it's very clear

they make that decision

that, no, actually,

you don't have to

keep the Torah in so far

as it pertains to us as Jews.

You just have to keep

these minimal requirements.

And of course, there are

there's more to

be said about it.

But these are the basic,

relevant things

that need to be kept

by all believers

in order for us to have

fellowship together.

So they didn't see any conflict

between keeping the Torah

and their faith in Yeshua.

And that was entirely natural

coming out of their context.

Every Jew,

whether or not they kept it,

understood that the Torah

was given to the Jewish people

and that maybe they should,

even if they disagreed,

they knew that was

the thinking in those days.

And the Jewish believers

didn't disagree.

Yeah,

and I think one thing

we need to keep in mind, too,

for Acts Chapter 15,

the Jerusalem Council, that

these new Gentile believers

were coming from

completely pagan cultures.

So I think that's also

why the the disciples

picked those specific laws,

especially because

I think those would

have been involved

in the pagan customs

that these Gentile believers

were coming from.

Yeah,

that's really true.

And actually, that's

what my doctoral

dissertation was

on, was a discipleship manual

written by Jewish believers

for the Gentiles.

And it demonstrates

that they're fully on

board with God's plan

to bring the gospel

to the nations.

But as they explain

discipleship and how

a believer should live

for these people

who are not Jewish,

they include all kinds of

moral requirements

that we would agree with.

But they are very careful

and strikingly omit

those commandments that

should be specifically viewed

as commands given as a sign

between God and Israel.

For example, the Sabbath,

the Lord's Day is mentioned,

but the Sabbath never is

and this book is written

probably by these

early believers,

if not in Jerusalem,

maybe in Pella, on the other

side of the Jordan

or in Antioch.

It's written by them

in these early days,

around that time

that the apostles

are getting elderly and

passing away or being executed

for one reason or another.

They really made it clear

you don't have to

keep those things

that are specific

to the people of Israel.

So the Sabbath,

the festivals, kosher food

is not mentioned

and circumcision

is not mentioned.

And yet that fits beautifully

with Acts chapter 15,

where the same kind of

thinking is behind

the apostolic decree.

And speaking

of the apostles,

we know that the apostle

Paul wrote in Romans 10:4 "For

Messiah is the end of the law

for righteousness

to everyone who believes."

What does this mean?

Yeah, I love that verse

because it doesn't mean

the end, as in it's all over

once the end comes.

Now Messiah has come

it's all over.

The word there is "telos",

which means the "end goal"

and sometimes can

mean "perfection".

It's He is the the ultimate

goal of the Torah.

In other words, the

Torah points to Him.

And then Rav Shaul

qualifies it,

he says, for righteousness.

So in terms

of our righteousness,

Messiah is the one

who has fulfilled

the Torah and takes us

the rest of the way

beyond what we can do in

and of ourselves.

We can all keep certain

aspects of the Torah,

but we can't keep it

like He did.

And because

of His unique position as both

entirely one with

the almighty God,

but also one with us

as a human being,

He was in that position

to mediate

and to fulfill on our behalf.

And so today, Jewish

people, religious Jews,

will go and pray

at the tombs of rabbis

and people who are considered

extremely righteous

and hope that

through their prayers

in those places,

that somehow their prayers

might have extra

merit on the basis of their

on the basis of the

righteousness of those rabbis

whose tombs they're praying at.

We have a much greater

rabbi who's alive

and is able to lovingly

intercede for us.

It's really fantastic.

So He's the end of the

Torah in the sense

that He fulfills it

beyond what we can

to its ultimate degree,

so that we are declared

absolutely righteous

in terms of the requirements

of the Torah before God.

Amen.

And that's such a relief,

because nobody can perfectly

keep the law as though

that is indeed good news.

So as a Jewish

believer in Jesus,

how has coming to faith

in Yeshua

impacted your perception

of the Torah?

Well,

I think I'm different than some

Jewish believers

in my generation,

in that most Jewish believers

in my generation did not have

Jewish parents who believed in

Yeshua and I did.

So I grew up in a home

where we really understood

from my very earliest age

who Yeshua was

and what He meant to us.

But it has become

increasingly clear to me

that the Torah is still vital

and relevant to me

as a Jewish believer.

After all of my studies,

I can see from my

studies in Acts,

and from my studies

in this book called

The Dedication, that

there was no other

thought in the minds

of the early Jewish believers,

other than that, yeah,

the Torah is still

valid for us today.

It's

and they didn't

even question that.

To do away with the Torah

would be to do away

with this covenant.

This relationship

between God and Israel,

it's based on the Torah.

And there's a sense

in which replacement

theology or supersessionism

is in whatever

you want to call it,

which says that the church

has superseded Israel.

That kind of thinking

has basically relied

on this idea that the

Torah is no longer

relevant to Israel,

but it's still there.

God says,

I will have this relationship

with you forever.

I will be your God

and you will be my people.

That's something

that actually goes

beyond the actual

commandments of the Torah.

And and says even beyond

these instructions,

whether or not you keep them,

I am your God,

you are my people.

So I would never think

that anyone should keep

or think that

keeping the commandments of God

has merit in terms of

our relationship to God,

in terms of our salvation

and our eternal future,

but for Jewish

believers, the Torah,

at the very least,

in a broad sense, has

outlined that relationship

between us and God,

between God and Israel,

and is still relevant today.

That's awesome.

Thank you so much, Daniel.

As we conclude here,

I have just one question

to ask you.

One bottom line question,

is Christianity anti-Torah?

Well.

Maybe if I say the

Christianity of the Bible,

the New Testament

revelation of Messiah,

that is not anti-Torah at all.

What Christianity

has become in history

as a religious system.

Yes, sometimes that has

been very anti-Torah.

But

the Bible that we hold dear,

that true believers in Yeshua

and whether Jewish or Gentile

hold as their authority,

is definitely not anti-Torah.

It cautions us strongly against

looking to Torah

as the way of righteousness

and the way to God,

but it also very strongly

and clearly shows

that even people like Rav

Shaul to the end of their days

were keeping Torah,

Timothy, his disciple, who was

Jewish, had a Jewish mother,

he was circumcised

because he was Jewish

and he was in that

covenant relationship

with God and Rav Shaul

wanted it to be clear

and plain.

So, yeah,

the true true Christianity

is not anti-Torah.

"Do

not think that I came

to abolish the Law

or the Prophets;

I did not come to abolish

but to fulfill.

For truly I say to you,

until heaven and earth

pass away,

not the smallest letter

or stroke

shall pass from the Law

until all is accomplished.”

Matthew, chapter 5,

verses 17 through 18.

When Yeshua came to earth, He

taught people how to properly

keep the Torah—the

Spirit of the Law,

not just the letter.

Jesus raised the standard

by calling us to see the deeper

meaning of God’s laws.

For Jewish people

who have come to faith in

Yeshua,

their understanding

of the Torah has

been enlightened by the way

Jesus explained

and fulfilled it.

We will all see the complete

fulfillment of the Torah

when Jesus returns—and

until then, we walk

in obedience to God’s

Word as He leads us.

Thank you for listening

to this week’s episode

of Our Hope,

featuring Chosen

People Ministries’

Seattle branch leader, Dr.

Daniel Nessim.

This episode was written

and produced by Nicole Vacca

and edited by Grace Swee.

This episode was

also made possible

thanks to Abe Vazquez,

Robert Walter, Dr.

Mitch Glaser, and

Kieran Bautista.

I’m Nicole Vacca.

Until next time.

Thanks for listening

to Our Hope.

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